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Andy B Harassment Continues

Andy B has been harassing my FI community using many false identities. He left after I caught and exposed him, but he returned in Aug 2020. He’s written over 100 new curi.us messages under the names Periergo and Anonymous, and his Periergo Less Wrong account has been banned by Less Wrong for targeted harassment against me.

Unfortunately, he succeeded at his goal of destroying my discussions with Less Wrong.

Andy’s actions – including threats, doxxing, spamming, infiltrating the FI Discord with multiple sock puppets for months, and posting hundreds of harassing curi.us messages – violate multiple laws. He’s attacked several other FI members, not just me. His real name is unknown.

If anyone is actually willing to discuss this matter, I will provide additional evidence as appropriate. I have extensive documentation. I already posted evidence, and none of the facts are disputed.

Andy’s Friends

Andy is a David Deutsch (DD) fan who is friends with the “CritRat” DD fan community, including the “Four Strands” subgroup. They have turned a blind eye to Andy’s actions. They’ve refused to ask him to stop or to say that they think harassment is bad. The CritRat community is toxic and has also been an ongoing source of (milder) trouble from people besides Andy.

Andy’s friends include many of DD’s associates and CritRat community leaders. They know what he’s done but apparently don’t care. They’re providing him with encouragement and legitimacy in a social group, and some of them have egged him on. The public communications with Andy that I link below are all from months after Andy’s harassment was exposed.

  • Lulie Tanett has friendly tweets with Andy (related, she tweets saying we need to use force and threats, which she considers a useful “technology”). She’s DD’s current closest associate and long time IRL friend, who he often promotes on Twitter and does joint projects like videos with. She’s promoted on DD’s website. She has a history of knowingly associating with people like online harassers, doxxers and spam botters.
  • Sarah Fitz-Claridge follows Andy on Twitter. She co-founded Taking Children Seriously with DD and is his long time IRL friend. She has a hateful attitude towards ET.
  • Sarah’s husband has friendly communications with Andy on Twitter. He’s had discussions with DD for many years. He’s said hateful things about ET.
  • Brett Hall tweets with Andy (examples 2 and 3). He’s promoted on DD’s website and by DD’s tweets, and he’s said hateful things about ET.
  • Samuel Kuypers tweets with Andy. He’s promoted on DD’s website and recently co-authored a physics paper with DD.
  • Bruce Nielson tweets with Andy (more). He’s a Four Strands leader/moderator.
  • Aaron Stupple tweets with Andy. He’s a Four Strands leader/moderator.
  • Dennis Hackethal talks with Andy publicly and was co-moderator of a DD related subreddit with Andy. He’s a Four Strands leader/moderator who has libeled and plagiarized ET. DD has promoted him on Twitter.

All of these people, as well as DD, have so far refused to communicate about this problem. They apparently have no interest in a truce or deescalation. They’re making the problem worse.

They’ve stated no grievances against FI, no terms they want, no willingness to negotiate, and no approaches to problem solving that they’d try. They’ve given no explanation of how they view the Andy problem, and they haven’t said anything to discourage the harassment coming from their community. They haven’t made no contact requests either; they just ghost me and others without explanation. (Except Dennis asked me not to email him again about Andy, which I haven’t.) I’m willing to communicate using proxies, involve a neutral mediator, or take other reasonable steps.

The situation is asymmetric. The FI community is peaceful. Harassment doesn’t come from FI towards CritRats or anyone else. If any FI member did harass someone, I’d ask them to stop or ban them, rather than encouraging them. (Or I’d discuss my doubts about the accusation, if I had any. What I wouldn’t do is ignore the matter with no comment, and ghost the victim, while continuing a friendly relationship with the person accused of extensive harassment, illegal actions and aggressive force.)

Warning

Andy hasn’t harassed FI since his Less Wrong account was banned recently. Maybe he’s decided to leave me alone because he got caught again? I hope so. Or maybe he’ll continue on any day.

Despite Andy’s repeated aggression against FI, as well as the misdeeds of other CritRats, I would still prefer to deescalate the situation.

But this is a chronic problem which is doing major harm, and Andy has a pattern of returning to harass again. I’ve been extraordinarily patient and forgiving, but this can’t go on forever. Andy started harassing us two years ago. If any CritRats are willing to speak to me about deescalating or improving this situation, please contact me (comment below, email curi@curi.us or use Discord). So far the communications of myself and others just get ignored by CritRats. They’ve repeatedly ghosted the victims instead of the harassers.

So I’m issuing a warning: If Andy comes back to harass me again, I will hold his supporters accountable. If you’re encouraging Andy while not even giving lip service to peace, and you’re refusing to communicate about any conflict resolution, then I will blame you and take defensive actions like writing about how you’re violating my rights and sharing evidence. I’ll particularly criticize the community leaders, especially the top leader, DD. If (like me) you don’t want this outcome, clean up your community and stop harassing FI.


Elliot Temple on September 22, 2020

Messages (22)

If you want to help, talk with CritRats. See if any will communicate, explain themselves, negotiate, be reasonable, etc.


curi at 2:40 PM on September 22, 2020 | #18107 | reply | quote

> your RULES say your forum is UNMODERATED and UNCENSORED and that you can post WHATEVER YOU WANT... but Because, you disagree with my opinions and my religion you delete my posts... thats hideous you are goinaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa to rot in hells

In addition to harassing me with your apparent anti-semitism, and trolling about Trump and capitalism, *you posted a 17,000 word spam about George Washington and a 14,000 word spam about Michael Jackson*. All your posts were in bad faith, and the long spams were clearly malicious vandalism, not expressing your ideas.

Leave me the hell alone. If you keep spamming, I will consider you a criminal.


curi at 8:22 PM on December 28, 2020 | #47 | reply | quote

#47 Note: I removed his comments and I moved my comment here to get it out of a thread where it was off topic.


curi at 8:53 PM on December 28, 2020 | #19291 | reply | quote

#19291 Now, the next day after 20 malicious comments from someone familiar with navigating this site, curi.us is being DDoSed. The user agents claim it's not a web crawler or other bot, just a regular browser (meaning a person DDOSing me on purpose or a very shady bot that isn't targeting me personally), it's distributed over many IPs, and the request volume was enough that I got an error when trying to post a comment.

I haven't had any negative interactions with anyone community recently. Not even like a heated debate.

Cloudflare DDoS protection is now enabled, which means it'll check your browser before letting you access the site.

DD, Lulie and other Crit Rat leaders still have not said a single word to discourage the harassment and toxic culture they've instigated. They are likely to blame.


curi at 11:51 AM on December 29, 2020 | #19301 | reply | quote

I posted this comment: https://curi.us/2287-andy-b-harassment-and-four-strands#19329

before realizing that it's more suited to be posted in this thread instead since the ongoing evidence and developments are here. I've pasted the comment's contents below as a crude way of moving it here. Please feel free to delete or hide my original comment in that other thread as appropriate.

Sucks to see that they're DDoSing curi.us again. IIRC last time was right after you called Dennis out for plagiarism. Weird that it's happening with no clear provocation this time. Documenting everything to have a clear trail of evidence is a good idea and I will contribute however I can. I'm also hopeful that evidence like this can help show (some) CritRats that this is a real problem and criminal behaviour. Not holding my breath though since there's already so much evidence for them to draw their own judgment of the issue if they are willing to look through it.

-------

The people currently defending Andy on Twitter (PresidentSunday, KS) aren't providing any evidence or arguments and are willfully ignoring the evidence provided to them, including this thread.

They're also lying about Elliot with no evidence or arguments.

Below tweet from KS is a reply to an unrelated tweet by DorfGinger. I thought I should post it here since it doesn't directly mention curi42 and wouldn't directly notify Elliot.

https://twitter.com/ks445599/status/1344438715339268096

KS:

> Hey you have your DM off so I just want to tell you that Elliot Temple (curi 42) is a terrible person. He became super angry with David Deutsch and critical rationalists for no real reason. Basically he thinks he's a genuis and he thinks we should should all worship him.

¬

Assertions but no evidence or arguments. Smears framed as helpful warning rather than tentative judgment open to correction. It's libel and wrong!

More tentatively: I dislike that they seem to be treating it like a social game, defending their ally Andy, rather than a truth-seeking endeavour based on the facts of Andy's history at FI. Trying to discredit Elliot doesn't change any of the evidence, but it sure gives them an excuse to ignore it.

I hate that fact-backed claims about their wrongdoing get buried or ignored with time. Like Dennis Hackethal's book filled with plagiarism of Elliot and DD is still for sale and Amazon censored the one honest review (Elliot's review explaining the plagiarism issues and poor scholarship). Only Scott Hamilton seemed to take those plagiarism claims seriously to publicly ask Dennis some critical questions (although only about a separate issue, whether Dennis had plagiarized any of Scott's ideas for a discussion platform design).

The secondary David Deutsch discussion group seem content to continue discussing with Andy and Dennis and not calling out any of their problematic behaviour. That's terrible and their own thinking is being harmed by those choices. If they're doing it because there's a scarcity of people interested in CR for them to discuss with, they'd be better off requesting some constrained. bounded discussions with FI and trying to expand on those instead of accepting and condoning criminal behaviour.


Anonymous at 4:34 AM on January 2, 2021 | #19330 | reply | quote

#19330 I agree they're being social and I haven't done socially effective things to improve this situation. (I'm busy and those are not my speciality. If someone else would do those, please and thank you). Over a year of cyberstalking, and more, is apparently not enough to get many people to focus on objective reality instead of social reality.

My Amazon review was likely deleted due to flagging/reporting, possibly in an automated fashion. I don't know why no one else has posted a review.

I appreciate your comments and summary, which I broadly agree with.

The DDoS started the day after 20 malicious comments, which I removed, so you may not have seen them. The commenter appeared to have some familiarity with my site, e.g. they likely used the Recent Comments page to find stuff. They repeatedly asked if I was Jewish, posted two >10k word wikipedia articles as spam (to escalate when ignored re jewish), and then started flaming about censorship stuff. I often leave hostile comments up but I started removing his comments when he posted the long spams. I also tried communicating with him once but that didn't help. The commenter said some weird anti-atheist stuff, and called me a criminal. He used the word "evader" which is an uncommon word that relates to one of the things Andy was particularly triggered about (as well as to Objectivism more generally). He also said things like "HITLER was no worse than you lying, Cheating, and So ON." He seemed to hate Trump and capitalism (like Andy and Andy's friend or sock puppet President Sunday). He also used a VPN to evade an IP block (like Andy has done).


curi at 4:06 PM on January 2, 2021 | #19332 | reply | quote

#19330 Oh and the previous two DDoSes were very likely from the same person. The first of those was after I privately emailed Dennis a draft of my plagiarism article, but before I made it public. That indicates the DDoSer is Dennis or someone that Dennis told. Dennis refused to say who he told about my article, so he's at least some sort of DDoS accomplice/enabler.

And Andy has a history of starting things out of the blue, so it could easily be him. His Periergo sock puppet showed up for no particular reason or special timing. Partly he also has some history of becoming busy or something (sometimes for multiple months) and spending a lot less time online (I think his life situation is a bit unstable and I know he's worked some low end jobs), so partly he'll just leave and show up again when he has free time.


curi at 4:09 PM on January 2, 2021 | #19333 | reply | quote

Here are my full DMs with @PresidentSunday

I blocked him after the blatant flaming. I think every one of his messages was hostile.

Then he went public to attack me, e.g. this targeted attempt to damage my career and destroy my ability to interact specifically with people I respect who are not FI community members:

The selection of who to tweet from everyone I'm following is good. Either he's been following me for a while or was advised on who to send the tweets to by someone who has, likely Andy. Andy knows enough about me to pick a list of 3 people like that and do a good job with knowing which ones I care about who are outside the FI community and who have talked with me some.

Nasty stuff.

There's also this:

And:

Also KS (Maybe Kevin Schoedel? Kevin was a TCSer from the early days who is in the Sarah social circle. I've met him IRL.) is trying to escalate the situation:


curi at 4:45 PM on January 2, 2021 | #19334 | reply | quote

#19334 Note that you can click images to expand them.


curi at 4:46 PM on January 2, 2021 | #19335 | reply | quote

I think you need to take stronger action against this, like involve a lawyer or something. Weak action will only encourage them and cause you even more grief in the future.

It kinda reminds me of how Trump should have taken stronger action before the election knowing that the Democrats were going to try to steal it. He didn't and is now paying a big price.


Anonymous at 5:44 PM on January 2, 2021 | #19336 | reply | quote

#19336 Involve a lawyer how? I don't know Andy's real name. And a lot of the others are international.


curi at 10:21 PM on January 2, 2021 | #19338 | reply | quote

#19338 And I basically don't think our legal system is good enough to handle people in an enabler role for this (e.g. LT or DD), even though I believe they are initiating force and would face major legal consequences in a better world (and most of them, knowing that, wouldn't do it in that world).

There are people who have dealt with significantly worse problems (e.g. IRL stalking + threats of harm + caught with a weapon) and have trouble getting the police or legal system to help much.

Put another way: our government sucks at protecting us.


curi at 10:26 PM on January 2, 2021 | #19339 | reply | quote

#19336 An alternative way to proceed with stronger action is to start publishing things about DD (e.g. private messages or certain old public messages) that he doesn't want published until he or others respond. I could also do this to LT. (They are the two that I have a *lot* of material for.) I don't believe that would be a violation of their legal rights. It would normally be a violation of their moral rights, but not in this case because it'd be part of a defensive strategy in response to their violations of my moral rights.

But, despite their actions, I really don't want to hurt them. I was planning to maybe do it anyway if more severe harassment continued. It's also something that's hard to do without causing a lot of people to think I'm in the wrong. I did a mild version of it here ( Praise from David Deutsch ) which was multi-purpose (also helps set record straight against a campaign of lies) and also significantly less offensive to most readers due to the positive focus.

I also fear they would still be unwilling to do any common preference finding, problem solving or basic negotiating a truce pretty much regardless of what I did. I think they rationalized that I'm impossible to talk to in their own minds and doing things they hate might not get them talking. (BTW there exist quite nasty articles about ghosting people and getting all your friends to join in. Some articles have very harmful, bad advice. And the articles broadly assume the person who thinks they are a victim is right and that they should ghost the other person they regard as toxic. I think what they're doing is partly a current cultural thing. Although even those articles generally recommend making a "no contact" request, which DD/LT/etc have never done. (And even if they did make a no contact request, it would be invalid in a situation like this where they are helping enabling harassment of me.)

I also really don't want to spend my energy fighting with people.


curi at 10:48 PM on January 2, 2021 | #19340 | reply | quote

#19336 I am aware that things only improved with Andy when I took the stronger action of posting public accusations with extensive evidence against him, including a chart of comments with IPs. (I didn't delay that very much while attempting to speak to people about the problem privately first. That's because I started speaking to them before I had all the Andy info figured out. The blog post went up soon after I had all the info in it. Before that I tried telling Andy that I knew everything and to fuck off forever, but he wouldn't listen. After I posted he thought he lost and gave up for months, but started showing his face again when he realized none of the CritRats rejected him. Andy expected them to shun him for his misdeeds, but they didn't. Also previous to that, the initial Andy harassment stopped only when I convinced him I really did have hard evidence that it was him – before that he tried lying and gaslighting, but when he was absolutely sure he was caught then he gave up and left for months. But then he came back on multiple sock puppets. He actually has mixed feelings, btw. He's come back multiple times and always tries to learn from me before getting triggered, raging, and trying to hurt me.)


curi at 10:56 PM on January 2, 2021 | #19341 | reply | quote

They used Twitter's rules against targeted harassment to target and harass me by mass flagging a tweet from over 4 years ago. My account is locked unless/until I delete it. I don't actually care about it but I dislike editing my archive on principle. Even if it were a bad tweet[1], I wouldn't want to remove that history.

[1] It's short and assumed a lot of contextual knowledge to understand it; it's not important and I don't care about it; but I did have reasons for thinking and communicating something negative about DD, which I didn't explain in the tweet, but which I stand by now.

I screenshotted that on my phone then went to the next screen. Then I went on my computer and found out *you can't go back to the prior screen* which is lame. Good thing I screenshotted it the first time!

This is a nasty feature by Twitter which is meant to enable cancel culture and to benefit the kind of people who use it (e.g. I don't recall ever reporting/flagging a tweet despite seeing some very nasty ones). Twitter also hides how automated this is, how many people are in the mob(?) that's harassing my account, etc. There's a broad lack of transparency.

Also it'd make more sense to lock you out of posting tweets but still enable reading tweets. If they'd do that, I could actually just leave it locked for months with little inconvenience. But they intentionally make the website hard to use while logged out, don't let you use the app at all without logging in (I think), and I'd rather not use a different account to read Twitter. Locking read access when you want to lock write access is an ongoing issue that people seem not to think about or something. E.g. forums routinely ban people (can't read or write) instead of disabling their ability to post. Once I asked a google group moderator in advance about that and suggested that posting bans make more sense and there's no need to kick people off the group. *He agreed with me and thought it made sense.* Some weeks later he banned me in the normal way that prevented me from reading the group anymore. There's something kinda ingrained about full bans. I think maybe they want to punish the person and destroying an extra thing seems like a bonus to them instead of like needless (and therefore malicious) destruction.


curi at 1:01 AM on January 3, 2021 | #19342 | reply | quote

#19342 Twitter offers me a "remove" button but *has already removed the tweet* before I press the button. The button really means "i agree not to appeal the claim that the tweet violates twitter rules". Twitter won't let you have your account back plus have the option to appeal later. Their info is misleading and is a bit dystopian (it's kinda demanding people in a dispute positively affirm that Twitter is right, instead of allowing disagreement to exist). I do not agree with them.

Twitter is also bad at coding, in yet another way. Here's the Twitter iOS app when I opened it this morning after not hitting "Remove" yesterday:


curi at 12:22 PM on January 3, 2021 | #19344 | reply | quote

Here's what DD had said:

https://twitter.com/DavidDeutschOxf/status/760071665304887304

Pretty nasty, false, and detached from reality. Flaming Trump without argument (and, unlike my tweet, DD also didn't provide his arguments elsewhere and also would not provide them if asked) and betraying his former values. (Not very effective) social climbing/pandering. He sacrificed so much for so little. He's never gotten anywhere by being an establishment-leftist suck up. He got his social status by a combination of 1) accomplishments/merit; plus 2) not being too offensive (the mainstream didn't notice TCS much, and he didn't talk about his libertarian ideas in his books or speeches). He could have supported Trump privately, said nothing publicly, and focused on more physics or philosophy accomplishments. That would have been more effective social climbing than what he did.


curi at 12:54 PM on January 3, 2021 | #19346 | reply | quote

I clicked "Remove" to unlock my Twitter account. Lame but convenient and I don't think it particularly matters. The next screen said something kinda like: Thanks for addressing this issue. Your account is unlocked. Click here to access it again. Please review the Twitter Rules so you can follow them in the future.

I forgot to screenshot it.


curi at 12:57 PM on January 3, 2021 | #19347 | reply | quote

Turned off DDoS protection today (it causes some problems). Site is still under attack. Too busy to deal with this atm. Turned it back on.


curi at 1:25 AM on January 4, 2021 | #19360 | reply | quote

I disabled DDoS protection again. I'm not being DDoSed at the moment. Last time it took hours before they resumed. I won't be surprised if it starts again soon. Here's some data on the attack:

The monthly graph uses requests/day:

The large increases are the two recent DDoSes.

The last 24 hours graph uses requests/hour:

The large increase is the second DDoS.


curi at 6:09 PM on January 4, 2021 | #19364 | reply | quote

#19364 DDoSing is a serious crime which people spend years in prison for.


curi at 6:17 PM on January 4, 2021 | #19365 | reply | quote


curi at 6:46 PM on January 4, 2021 | #19367 | reply | quote

(This is an unmoderated discussion forum. Discussion info.)